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May 22, 2012, 06:23:11 PM

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CARfaq.org > Forum > Campus > General Automotive > General Discussions > Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich
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Author Topic: Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich  (Read 786 times)
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Rippling Hurst
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Re: Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 05:25:56 PM »

Agreed 100%

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Re: Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2010, 07:28:28 PM »

If you read up on BMW Vision Concept, this is exactly what i feel the car should be
it's small block TT diesel plugin electric
this thing would yeld about 125mpg while smoking modern sport cars
I believe turbo diesel, especially from BMW, is the best bang between performance and efficiency
Cost as much (or less) as its gasoline sibling

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24588

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/BMW_Vision_Concept.jpg

Quote
Powertrain specifics

The power and performance are made possible by combining a fuel-efficient 1.5L, 3-cylinder turbodiesel with an electric motor on each axle. The intelligent combination of these units enhances the dynamic performance and efficiency of the car. Overall system output is 356 HP and peak torque of 590 lb-ft. The special arrangement of the two motors and diesel engine allows all-wheel drive when drive in all-electric mode. The result is minimum power loss and transmission of the power available under all conditions.

Turbodiesel with unprecedented specific output
The smallish 1.5L turbo-diesel engine follows the downsizing principle of using a relatively small engine combined with a turbocharger to reduce fuel consumption.

Through its compact dimensions, the 3-cylinder fits conveniently in front of the rear axle like in an agile mid-engine sports car. Fuel is injected by the latest generation of Piezo-electric Direct Injection, and the turbocharger features variable intake geometry for maximum efficiency. Engine output from the 1.5L alone is an amazing 163 HP with peak torque of 214 lb-ft.

The specific output of 109 HP/L sets a new benchmark in diesel technology. The power delivered by the turbodiesel is conveyed to the rear axle by means of a double-clutch transmission (DCT). The advanced transmission technology allows the driver to shift gears without the slightest interruption of power. BMW Vision EfficientDynamics features a newly-developed version of BMW’s DCT with six speeds for maximum efficiency and flexibility.

I LOVE THIS CAR
Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 08:13:08 PM by AndreyATC » Logged


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Re: Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 08:46:57 PM »

Mike I don't see how this is any different than any other form of tax though.  Sure its punishing the poorest people most when its gasoline, but at the same time, I pay property taxes that pay for schools etc.  Why would someone who owns a one million dollar home pay 10 times more for county taxes than a 100,000 dollar house when the taxes go towards the same services.  Like oh your house is 7,000 square feet so we need more money from you to pay for police than someone who lives in a shack?  You own 20 empty acres of land, but we need money to pay for schools. 

Taxes are a necessary evil and my point was rising prices can curb usage.  I can tell you right now, I would burn more gas if it was 80 cents a gallon again like in 1999.  People would rent more RVs and go boating more etc, but the cost of gas is prohibitive.  If it became excessively expensive, then people would look to other forms of transportation like plug-ins, hybrids, and mass transit options.
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Rippling Hurst
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Re: Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2010, 12:03:00 AM »

Quote from: Liquid Platinum M35 on August 03, 2010, 08:46:57 PM
I can tell you right now, I would burn more gas if it was 80 cents a gallon again like in 1999.  People would rent more RVs and go boating more etc, but the cost of gas is prohibitive. 

Oh man...all true of course, but you had to remind me that?  80c...So cool. Cool
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Mike_TX
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Re: Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2010, 05:09:40 PM »

Quote from: Liquid Platinum M35 on August 03, 2010, 08:46:57 PM
Mike I don't see how this is any different than any other form of tax though.  Sure its punishing the poorest people most when its gasoline, but at the same time, I pay property taxes that pay for schools etc.  Why would someone who owns a one million dollar home pay 10 times more for county taxes than a 100,000 dollar house when the taxes go towards the same services.  Like oh your house is 7,000 square feet so we need more money from you to pay for police than someone who lives in a shack?  You own 20 empty acres of land, but we need money to pay for schools. 

Taxes are a necessary evil and my point was rising prices can curb usage.  I can tell you right now, I would burn more gas if it was 80 cents a gallon again like in 1999.  People would rent more RVs and go boating more etc, but the cost of gas is prohibitive.  If it became excessively expensive, then people would look to other forms of transportation like plug-ins, hybrids, and mass transit options.

Well, most taxes aren't punishment per se. Property taxes, for example, are used to fund schools, infrastructure, etc., whereas the gasoline tax you propose would be for the sole purpose of forcing people to drive less ... it's to promote a negative, not a positive. More than anything, it's the government modifying or controlling behavior by imposing a financial burden on the citizens. That's not the proper role of government nor of taxation.

Property taxes are progressive in that they impose a heavier burden on the wealthy, as opposed to regressive, which impacts the low income more. I don't disagree with you about progressive taxes, since they're not necessarily fair either, but there is a correlation between the impact of a huge house on the community's resources versus a small one so a case can be made for it.

My main argument against taxes like the gasoline tax is that the government controls us too much as it is, and I'll resist anything that looks like more "social engineering" (a euphemism for behavior modification). My secondary argument is that we have plenty of oil in this country - more than in all the Middle East - so there's no need for the government to be forcing us like sheep into doing things the way they'd like. After all, most of the impetus for this whole thing is political anyway.

Things like electric cars, hybrids and hydrogen fuel cells should be no more successful than the people want them to be, period. They shouldn't be forced down our throats, either through fakey CAFE standards, or subsidies, or gasoline taxes. They'll either succeed or fail on their own merit under the free enterprise system, as they should, and the government needs to butt out.

.
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Re: Electric car subsidies are a handout to the rich
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2010, 09:07:55 PM »

I agree with you.  I don't support raising gas taxes, I'm just arguing the efficacy of the price hike spurning alternative methods of transportation.

I don't agree with the idea that a larger/more expensive house has more impact on resources.  My parent's house is 1000 sq ft larger than my brothers, but they are both 2 person houses, use roughly the same amount of utilities (which are paid for outside of taxation of course), neither are using the school system, both on public streets, but the one house by virtue of location and size is about 200,000 dolllars more expensive.  So my parents pay 2000 more in property taxes per year.  I don't see where its warranted.  I've always been more a proponent of a flat tax, the more you spend/buy the more you pay in taxes.  It is still progressive and it encourages saving.
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