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CARfaq.org > Forum > Campus > BMW > General Discussions-BMW > The Myth of the "BMW handling "
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Rippling Hurst
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The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« on: June 21, 2008, 07:52:20 PM »

The Myth of "BMW, the best handling" sedans.

Why does most of the press praise BMW's handling and/or why most people say BMW's handling is the best among sedans?  After reading in Car and Driver that a 3 series can beat a Nissan GT-R and a 911 Turbo to boot, I thought what could they possibly be thinking?  If I were an Anthropologist I could very well ask: What kind of tribe would have such beliefs?  Is that some kind of a religion?   Huh?

Reasons for BMW's above average handling:

1. I always thought that the premium money you spend on a BMW would go to way above average shocks their competitors could get away with.  Until recently most competitors sedans gain like a second per lap (to give one example) after some shock upgrades, the exception being Mercedes AMG.
That was my standard answer, until I realized BMW began to change.  By this time, IIRC, the money you pay for a BMW began to go to pay for new, green, recyclable parts - I remember a BMW ad comparing the very solid E3 with the E36 around 1999...lots of solid steel were replaced with plastic and other dubious stuff everywhere - but all recyclable...
I wonder if the money is still going to the driving experience side of the equation, or is it being directed towards the luxury side?  I believe it is, unfortunately – to wit: the iDrive, the unnecessarily complicated electric steering, the new plastic joystic as the new shift gear knob, etc.  All bad, in my book.
Other factors to account for the mythical "BMW handling" frequently mentioned by others:

2. 50/50 weight distribution - short front overhang necessitating a very rigid body due to the increased wheelbase, and a rigid body is always good to help designing a working suspension.  Good reason, bu many also do that...can it explain everything? 

3. RWD of course, but then again Mercedes, Lexus does that too, and in general they lose to BMW in the handling department.   

4. BMW's engineers are better and smarter than the rest.  That's the silliest explanation of them all, but if you look at the BMW's forums, that's the answer more readily given.  Some guys look like Mac addicts fan boys, impressive...
Of course that makes no sense, IMHO.  Their engineers are certainly no better than the ones at AMG, Ferrari, Porsche, and more recently, Infiniti.  It's not a question of brains, but of design philosophy+money wisely spent, right?  I would think so.

To compound the problem it seems to me that nowadays everybody is trying to imitate the German cars, the BMW’s in particular – since they emphasize the sportiness…have you guys noticed that? 
Every new sedan wants to be a "German car"...Ford, GM, Mazda etc.  They are just digging their own grave...A Mazda 3/6 can't be a BMW with 50cent shocks...It can't be done, period, no matter how they wish.  Now if you can't imitate, disappointed reviewers will naturally praise the original over the wannabe's, no question about that.
Now, if you want a soft car for interstate travel, in the good old American tradition (short of big "I'm not cool" Caddies), you'll have to drive a Lexus ES...Of course, you can put a Saturn emblem on the DTS, who's gonna know?  Cheesy Grin 

There are also many of BMW's characteristics that are overlooked in most reviews that I see:

1. BMW steering is not quick, direct, as you'd expect from a "sport" sedan.  I believe that this is due to the fact that BMW's are engineered for Autobahns, that is, high speed handling.  It's made for cruising and slightly changing direction at 140mph, not for a last minute ham fisted correction in a (unexpected) decreasing radius blind turn in, say, California Canyon Roads.  For that I'd take an Infiniti any day.

2. Their suspension does not work well with a loaded car, meaning 4 adults and luggage.  It's engineered for an initial softness and later "bite", that gets negated when the initial soft travel is all used up by the extra weight.  Also, big potholes are a big no-no, it's apparently designed for Germany's small ripples only...

3. Their uber stiffness (due to the short overhang) comes at a price: weight.  Extra weight compared to their relatively small size.  A BMW 325i is more Nissan Versa (102in wheelbase, 169in lengh), than the bigger G35, but it is usually compared to the last (understandably given the target market) but praised for their weight advantage.  Considering the bigger size, and all the tech and safety gizmos inside a G35 (no optional rear airbags, etc), I'd say it should beat a small 3 series hands down in the relative weight department.  Never saw that happen.

4. They are small compared to the competition.  Not practical for a small family (like mine) that needs a "sporty" sedan.  An M35 is closer to a 7 series than a 5 series, a G35 is rougly the size of an 5 series...why?  I could justify a 3 series as a just married couple.  Not anymore with two daughters.  Camera gear, tripod, in laws, stroller and baby bags?  Not on a 3 series, easy on a G35, but the award for the best picnic experience calmly riding to the the top of the 3k feet Mt. Diablo with the family goes to my M35.  That's what life is all about!  Cool

5. iDrive:  Ugly and cumbersome - almost absurd.  Need I say more?  Yes, so much for "BMW's engineers are the best" line...

6. The new eletronic transmission gizmo with the plastic joystick in lieu of the leather knob.  BMW being BMW, they'll never lose a comparo due to things like this...but maybe they should.

7. Did I mentioned they are on the smallish side?   Grin

BMW's are fantastic cars, and deserve some of the praise they get.  But far from all.

Enough rambling, let’s discuss!

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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2008, 08:12:20 PM »

http://www.carfaq.org/index.php?topic=544

(I know you've already responded to that post, but!) .. it seems the new X6 does actually have some new handling trickery up its sleeve. I really want to see it in action. Mind you, Infiniti already has RAS/4WAS.. so I wonder how they really compare?
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2008, 10:32:00 PM »

I can't say I disagree with anything you've posted... Infiniti gets a bad wrap as the "heavy" car when they compare 335, G35, IS35, but in reality the G is almost exactly the same size as a GS and 535(545, whatever).  Price drives these comparisons though, and that means they compare the 3series to the G.  This is why I thought it was LUDICROUS when they tried to compare the 135 to the G.  Pleeease.

I talk all the time about the next car being a G37 sedan... but you're right... if I have a child next year, or one on the way, it might be an M...

edit: loved your op-ed piece by the way!
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2008, 11:30:04 PM »

Quote from: oztiks on June 21, 2008, 08:12:20 PM
http://www.carfaq.org/index.php?topic=544

(I know you've already responded to that post, but!) .. it seems the new X6 does actually have some new handling trickery up its sleeve. I really want to see it in action. Mind you, Infiniti already has RAS/4WAS.. so I wonder how they really compare?

I wonder about that too.  I think the verdict is open on the subject, but I'm not optimistic. 

Quote from: 07G35S on June 21, 2008, 10:32:00 PM
I can't say I disagree with anything you've posted... Infiniti gets a bad wrap as the "heavy" car when they compare 335, G35, IS35, but in reality the G is almost exactly the same size as a GS and 535(545, whatever).  Price drives these comparisons though, and that means they compare the 3series to the G.  This is why I thought it was LUDICROUS when they tried to compare the 135 to the G.  Pleeease.

I talk all the time about the next car being a G37 sedan... but you're right... if I have a child next year, or one on the way, it might be an M...

edit: loved your op-ed piece by the way!

The G and M are such nice cars, I just hope Infiniti keeps the same formula generation after generation.  It's going to be difficult, but we'll see.  Can't wait for the next M, even if it's just a new engine & transmission, fine.  It's gonna be enough for many.

Op-ed?  Sounds cool, and thanks! Smiley
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 01:55:35 AM by Rippling Hurst » Logged

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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 01:17:17 AM »

I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the 7 spd into the '06 body....... weee
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2008, 01:55:55 AM »

Agreed 100%
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2008, 02:38:08 AM »

The current body style is good... but there's room for improvement
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2008, 04:07:57 AM »

Quote from: Rippling Hurst on June 21, 2008, 07:52:20 PM
Some guys look like Mac addicts fan boys, impressive...

You lost me with that one statement....It's too bad. The rest of the piece was very rationale... Grin
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 07:56:28 AM »

Rippling Hurst, terrific post.  Very interesting, and very thoughtful.

From your post I am not entirely sure whether you agree that the BMW has the best handling, as only above average handling.  Is there a consensus that BMW's do have the best handling of any sedans, or any sedans in their price points?  I confess that I have not driven a BMW, so I cannot make any judgment from personal experience.   

Is it fair to compare the handling of two sedans of different sizes?  For example, is it fair to compare the handling of the G35 sedan to the BMW 3 series sedan, or would it be more fair to compare it to the 5 series which is closer in size?

I drive an 07 G35 Sedan.  My wife drives a Honda Accord.  The difference in handling between the cars is striking, even in City driving, which is mostly what I do. If the BMW 3 and/or 5 series handles better than the 07 G35 sedan, how much better is it?  I assume the extent of the difference in handling between the BMW and G is not as great as between the G and Accord.  If the cars are not pushed hard, such as on a track or in a race, is the difference in handling between the G and BMW still quite noticeable?

I thought the question of whether and to what extent the handling of a BMW sedan is better would be a relevant corollary to a discussion of why it is better.   
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 01:06:33 PM »

No personal offense, RH, but I somehow think the opinions of scads of professional drivers and auto journalists (who drive everything from Ford Focuses to Bugatti Veyrons) means something, and they almost overwhelmingly agree BMW's have the edge on handling.

I've owned 4 of them over the years ( 1 740i and 3 different 540i's), and I don't think there's anything like 'em. They just lost me with the bangle styling and the rapidly-escalating prices.

Having said that, as nice as it may be on the race track, I DO think that the magic 50-50 weight distribution can be a detriment in normal driving. I wadded up one of my 540i's in a sudden downpour while on a trip in Colorado, and I think the weight distribution played a part in it. I topped a steep hill on dry pavement at 70 mph only to encounter a wall of rain on the other side that had water running 3 inches deep on the downhill road surface. The car immediately hydroplaned, and I couldn't countersteer out of it. We rotated sideways and backwards and forwards and backwards for 3/4 of a mile before the right hand guard rail bounced us over into the grassy median and the mud finally stopped us.

Now, what does 50-50 have to do with it? Think about physics. The polar moment of a 50-50 car is somewhere around dead center, so when it loses traction, it rotates freely on that central axis like a pinwheel. Pinwheels don't give you much steering control. A typical nose-heavy car, OTOH, will tend to have some degree of "pendulum effect" ... that is, the heavy nose will tend to obey the law of gravity and head downhill first, thus resisting a spin to a greater degree.

That Beemer might as well have had a big rod stuck vertically down through the middle of the roof, with  the car's mass spinning around the rod. Steering was impossible, so I yelled to my wife to grab something and hang on, that we were going for a ride. We were lucky ... the car wasn't. It went home on the back of a truck and got traded before it even went in the body shop.

Give me a little front-end weight bias anytime ... I don't care about how a car "tracks" because I'm not putting it on a track anyway. I just want the damn thing to steer.

Mike
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2008, 03:08:19 PM »

Hmm...
What myth?
I think it handles better than most cars on the road
Is it better than high end cars, probably not
Comfort is greater than on my 06' FX with SP, less bumpy too
Balance is superb, you know exactly what the car will do based on your input
iDrive, well, painfull question for many, but once you've used it for some time it's great.
I really like the idea of short-cuts and position of it. There are also preset buttons for anything you like, "call wife", "navigate home", play iPod, etc. I find myself constantly reaching for knobs in FX and my hands are pretty long (being 6')
Steering, very spot on, quick, nimble
I did get active steering option, so its ratio is much-much smaller in lower speeds.
So far, the only decent car i like after bimmer in terms of hadling and road feel is new Infiniti G35/37.
Older ones felt a bit weird driving, clumsy

New Benz on the other hand is getting better.
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 10:23:58 PM »

Quote from: Dogged on June 22, 2008, 07:56:28 AM
Rippling Hurst, terrific post.  Very interesting, and very thoughtful.

From your post I am not entirely sure whether you agree that the BMW has the best handling, as only above average handling.  Is there a consensus that BMW's do have the best handling of any sedans, or any sedans in their price points? 

BMW is the de facto standard for many auto magazines, and enthusiasts.  It means that, given the same lap times, say, if a car does not emulate a BMW, it is as if "it is not as it should be".  It a state of mind, mostly among the press, and it's not entirely BMW's fault.

Quote
Is it fair to compare the handling of two sedans of different sizes?  For example, is it fair to compare the handling of the G35 sedan to the BMW 3 series sedan, or would it be more fair to compare it to the 5 series wich is closer in size?[/b]

Of course you can.   As long as your conclusions take into account the size difference, I can't see why not.  Also, Volvo once drove States (station wagons) in the British Touring Car series, running agains BMW 3 series and Alfa 145s, etc.  They probably thought they could win against the competition - i.e. they think they were comparable.  The problem begins when the journo states something like "The G35 is too porky, why can't Infiniti do like the 3 series BMW?"  That loaded question does not take into account the size differences.


Quote
I assume the extent of the difference in handling between the BMW and G is not as great as between the G and Accord.  If the cars are not pushed hard, such as on a track or in a race, is the difference in handling between the G and BMW still quite noticeable?

If you ride a canyon road, you can easily notice the higher steering effort.  For instance, I have a familiar freeway entrance (almost 180 degrees), very bumpy, that I can do safely at speed only if the suspension is capable of absorbing BIG potholes.  I have trouble doing that in a car that is too rigid (it will jump around) or too soft (it will wobble too much), etc.  This is great to get confidence in the car for unfamiliar roads, where you don't know what you going to get next turn, and so on and so forth.


Quote from: Mike_TX on June 23, 2008, 01:06:33 PM
No personal offense, RH, but I somehow think the opinions of scads of professional drivers and auto journalists (who drive everything from Ford Focuses to Bugatti Veyrons) means something, and they almost overwhelmingly agree BMW's have the edge on handling.

No ofense taken.  I agree that BMW's handling is very good, I'd say top notch.  But that does not make them the best everywhere.  Search for the post against the Car and Driver journos who found that the M3 beats the Turbo 911 and the Nissan GT-R.  I find that article a joke, and yet, they were made by a group of jornalists taken notes and coming to that conclusion...but you say they "must mean somehing" because they are "professional" drivers, well, I beg to differ.


Quote
Give me a little front-end weight bias anytime ... I don't care about how a car "tracks" because I'm not putting it on a track anyway. I just want the damn thing to steer.

Mike

Again, I have to differ.  Motorcycle magazines always put street bikes on the track to objective evaluate performance.  I think that is a good practice.  The track can show something useful about any car.  It's far from everything of course, but I think it's useful, and it would be an interesting read.

Quote from: AndreyATC on June 23, 2008, 03:08:19 PM
Hmm...
What myth?

That "BMW handling" is something that you can only experience in a BMW.  Look around and you see that everybody wants to be a BMW, as if it were the standard.  I don't think it is, nor it should be, but that's me.  A sedan can handle very good, and may not have BMW logo on its hood, it's possible.  However, many car magazines, and many enthusiasts "break a tie" saying simply "well, this one has a better lap times, but it's steering is not as "firm" as the BMW, and it's suspensions does not absorb little ripples like the BMW (not mention of the big potholes, etc.), so this car loses." 


Quote
I think it handles better than most cars on the road

No question about that.  There are exceptions though: the X5, the new X6 perhaps, etc.


Quote
So far, the only decent car i like after bimmer in terms of hadling and road feel is new Infiniti G35/37.
Older ones felt a bit weird driving, clumsy

New Benz on the other hand is getting better.

Agreed.
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2008, 11:26:23 PM »

(Begin crazy, incoherent rant)

Honestly, i've never driven a BMW. I've never felt the "desire" to. I have owned a few cars in the past (1998 Acura TL 3.2, 2x Lexus GS300, NOT the epitome of sport-handling, an '04 FX, and my 06' M)... I can honestly say, having driven the FX and the M I don't feel that I am potentially missing out on any kind of handling BMW "might" be able to potentially provide to me. I can perform some pretty.. interesting.. moves in the M without thinking twice - so it makes me wonder what BMW could possibly offer me more of?

Also - handling is a great thing, and wildly subjective. I also think there's a point when it gets "out of hand".. note the quote in http://www.carfaq.org/index.php/topic,544.html regarding the X6..


I’ll say it: in the real world, DPC comes in handy for cutting people off. If you’re turning left across traffic, you can really nail the throttle and count on the car to sling itself through the gap with no gut-wrenching stability-control stumble to interrupt your trajectory just as the grille of a Ford F-250 looms in your side window.


How many people in the real world would buy an X6 to drive it like that? My guess? None, except auto reviewers.. Am I wrong? Probably, but *I* dont think so. Smiley

Most people around here own BMW as some kind of perceived status symbol; although i'm not sure why. When you have a car (such as the 3 series) that almost anyone can walk into a dealership and get a $499 lease on, what's so special about that? There's definitely no exclusivity, and most of the market that picks them up could give a sheet about how the car actually drives..
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 09:23:20 AM »

I'm with Oz... I've never driven one for an extended amount of time, but have ridden in quite a few, and test drove two... I didn't feel like the price justified any change in perceived performance/handling.  Were I John Doe you coulda told me that the G35 0-60 time was 5.3 and the 335 was 6.2 or 5.1... I woulda had no clue... the cars feel about the same speed under heavy acceleration, as did the handling. 

I think a lot of people buy them as status symbols.  One of my coworkers picked up a used 745 like a 2002 about a year ago... I was like mistake... she was like why this is a BMW?   I said... if there is anyway you can get rid of that car... I'd do it... 2 months later it cost her 3000 just to get it running again.  Now I know thats way off subject, but I'm just saying she wanted the status symbol... she didn't have any clue what she was getting into.
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Re: The Myth of the "BMW handling "
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 09:26:03 AM »

Funny that. In the UK and most parts of Europe, Mercs are taxis and BMWs are DDs. No status uplift from either over there!
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