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May 24, 2012, 02:15:20 PM

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CARfaq.org > Forum > Campus > Lexus > General Discussions-Lexus > Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
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oztiks
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Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« on: August 02, 2008, 09:22:10 AM »

So everyone (well, mostly) has heard about the "little black box" in their car. During my out-of-sheer-boredom reading of my owner's manual I found a few pages dedicated to the EDR and what it does and doesn't do. Needless to say, I was not at all happy about it... will most more later when I have time to scan the page...
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 09:59:09 AM »

so they can monitor your driving habits I take it?
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 05:20:22 PM »

I hate the fact newer cars have this.  Here is a story I read in CarandDriver mag.
This guy in a newer Grand Am was driving around 110 or so MPH in a 55 or lower
speed zone.  Then he approached a speed limit in a town after slowing down, his
speed was 65 MPH in a 35 MPH zone.  A girl was backing out if her driveway, and
the guy ended up hitting her going 65 MPH and killed the girl.  At first he was let go
because it was noted as just an accident, but the authorities gathered info from
his box and it showed him prior speeding at a high rate of speed, and then doing
65 in a 35 zone.  After this, the guy was sent to prision for some years, I don't
now how many years though.  This is why I do not like to speed in anymore,
cause I always start thinking about that situation.   Sad
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 08:00:45 PM »

Wait they have this technology in a grand am?  Does that mean they can spy on me too?  I know that your ECU can report RPMs and stuff like that if you had redlined your car and burnt up your engine, but I didnt think it held any historical data.  Are infiniti's equipped with the black box?  and what happens if you remove the black box in the lexus?   or is the "black box" in fact... just an additional function of the ECU?
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 09:35:53 PM »

Some links:

http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/cdrlist.pdf
http://www.carseek.com/articles/car-black-boxes.html
http://www.prtassoc.com/library/pdf/PRT_Fall_Newsletter_2005.pdf

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_w75.pdf

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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 09:37:20 PM »

http://www.toyota.com/about/our_business/operations/sales/EventDataRecorder.html

Quote
&A
Event Data Recorders
June 25, 2007

Q1: What is an Event Data Recorder (EDR)?

Motor vehicles today have computers that monitor and control certain aspects of the vehicle to assist in driving and to maintain optimal vehicle performance. An EDR is an onboard device that receives information from these computers and records that information received several seconds before and/or a fraction of a second after a crash or near-crash situation. The data is intended to help understand how a vehicle's various systems functioned in a crash.
.
Q2: How does it differ from an airplane's black box?

Unlike a flight data recorder on an aircraft, an EDR does not record cabin conversations. It only records very brief data from the computers in the vehicle.

Q3: How long has Toyota been installing EDRs in its vehicles?

Toyota began phasing in airbag EDRs in vehicles in model year 2001 and vehicle stability control EDRs in model year 2000.

Q4: Why did Toyota begin using EDRs?

We began developing EDRs because we thought they would become standard in the industry and we believed the data collected could eventually be used to help make vehicles safer.

Q5: Who has access to the data?

A specialized tool, including hardware, software and a connector, is required to read out the data. At this time, there is only one prototype Toyota readout tool in the United States and only specially designated Toyota personnel use it. The tool has not yet been scientifically validated, and at this time, Toyota does not have confidence that the readout reports it generates are accurate.

Nevertheless, Toyota will access the data when it receives a written request from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for its Special Crash Investigations program, but only with NHTSA's assurance that the vehicle owner has given written permission and no personal identifying information about the owner will be published. Toyota also will access the data in response to a court order or a search warrant from law enforcement. These agencies understand the potential limitations of the tool, and therefore do not rely solely on the readout information; rather, they use the readout information in conjunction with a myriad of other information to analyze crashes. A commercially available tool (estimated purchase price $2,500) is being developed.

If asked specifically whether Toyota will use EDR data to defend its products in litigation, the answer is: The company has not made any decision about that yet.

In accord with a 2006 NHTSA rule stating that if a manufacturer equips a vehicle with an EDR, then a tool must be made commercially available to download the data from that EDR. The compliance date is Sept. 1, 2010, the start of the 2011 model year.

To avoid conflicts with state mandates, the NHTSA rule preempts any state laws and regulations inconsistent with the rule's disclosure requirement and timetable.

Q6: Who owns the data collected by an EDR?

A number of states have passed laws on this issue and established ownership rights. In general, these laws state that the owner or lessee of the vehicle at the time the data was created owns the data even if title to the vehicle is subsequently transferred to a lienholder or insurer. In states that have not passed legislation specifically addressing this issue, the data would likely be viewed by the courts as being owned by the owner of the vehicle. If title to the vehicle is transferred to a new owner after the event, courts would likely find that the new owner is also the owner of the data. The NHTSA rule leaves this issue to be addressed by state legislatures.

Q7: Will Toyota access the data at the request of the vehicle's owner?

Due to the known limitations of the prototype readout tool, Toyota will not honor requests from private individuals or their attorneys unless the requester is engaged in product liability litigation involving a Toyota/Lexus/Scion vehicle AND enters into an "agreed order" with Toyota.
Under the order, the requester agrees to (1) remove the air bag sensor assembly from the vehicle, (2) send it to Toyota, (3) allow Toyota a specific amount of time (currently three weeks) to do the readout of EDR in the air bag sensor assembly and (4) pay Toyota $1,500 to cover the cost.
In exchange, Toyota agrees to (1) do the readout, (2) allow the requesting party to observe and/or videotape the readout process, and (3) deliver both the raw data and Toyota's printed out result of it to the requester.

Q8: What does an EDR record?

In the event of a crash or near crash event, the EDR records data from the computers in the vehicle. The type of data recorded varies depending on which generation of EDR is in the vehicle. Examples include: engine speed, whether the brake pedal was applied or not, vehicle speed, to what extent the accelerator pedal was depressed, position of the transmission shift lever, whether the driver and front passenger wore seat belts or not, driver's seat position, SRS airbag deployment data and SRS airbag system diagnostic data. On Oct. 27, 2006, NHTSA required certain data be collected starting in 2010 if an EDR is installed. For further details, visit the NHTSA site: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/.

Q9 Can an EDR record a vehicle's location and speed at any given time?

An EDR only records data a few seconds prior to a crash and/or a fraction of a second after crash. It is not a tracking device or speed monitor.

Q10: What does Toyota do with the data from EDRs that it downloads?

Toyota is using the data to validate the accuracy of reports generated by its readout tool. It is not yet using the data retrieved for safety research.

Q:11: How long before Toyota finishes validating the data?

NHTSA's rule provides that if a manufacturer equips a vehicle with an EDR, then a tool to readout the data from that EDR must be commercially available no later than Sept. 1, 2010. Toyota will comply with the NHTSA rule.

Q12: Will Toyota then begin using the data for safety research?

Once we deem the data readout verifiable, we plan to use this real-world information to help develop vehicle safety performance.

Q13: Do other automakers install EDRs in their vehicles?

All major automakers doing business in the U.S. install some form of EDR in some of their vehicles. NHTSA's 2006 rule does not require automakers to install EDRs. It only mandates the types of data to be collected if they do.

Q14: What is the effect of the 2006, rule issued by NHTSA?

The rule is intended to standardize the data obtained through EDRs so that such data may be put to the most effective future use and to develop an EDR infrastructure that speeds medical assistance through an automatic crash notification system (ACN).

The rule:
o Applies to vehicles equipped with EDRs;
o Requires that the EDRs installed in light vehicles record a minimum set of specified data elements;
o Standardizes the format in which those data are recorded;
o Helps ensure the crash survivability of an EDR by requiring that the EDR function during and after the front and side vehicle crash tests specified in two Federal motor vehicle safety standards;
o Requires vehicle manufacturers to ensure the commercial availability of the tools necessary to enable crash investigators to retrieve EDR data;
o Requires vehicle manufacturers to include a standardized statement in the owner's manual indicating that the vehicle is equipped with an EDR and describing the functions and capabilities of EDRs to ensure public awareness of EDRs.

Light vehicles manufactured on or after Sept. 1, 2010, must comply with this rule.

NHTSA's 2006 rule "does not address other issues generally within the realm of state law, such as:
" the ownership of EDR data,
" how EDR data can be used/discovered in civil litigation,
" how EDR data may be used in criminal proceedings,
" whether EDR data may be obtained by the police without a warrant, whether EDR data may be developed into a driver-monitoring tool, and
" the nature and extent that private parties will have or may contract for access to EDR data. These issues are being addressed by state legislatures.

For more information about EDRs regulation, please visit the NHTSA website at: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/

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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 09:40:51 PM »

There is a summarized page in my owner's manual that I dont have on me right now, but it basically states that Lexus/Toyota have the rights to take aggregated/anonymized data from the car and sell/redistribute it to third parties (without any reason/justification/cause). I cannot see how this is even REMOTELY legal. I don't recall waiving my 4th Amendment Rights when I signed the papers for my car?

As a side note, Infiniti/Nissan does have a similar thing, it's noted in the back of the owner's manual, and I don't remember the specifics of it but it didn't seem quite as invasive as the lexus device.
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 09:41:58 PM »

GT-R: http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=23355&mode=threaded&pid=335356
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 09:45:50 PM »

Sample of abuse of EDR data by law enforcement:

I was recently speaking with a friend of a friend who is a police lieutenant. I was joking (not really) about the installing a camera in my car and using it to record the police performing their normal B.S. (speeding, red light running, tailgating, etc). He then commented on the fact that a local news station did this same exact thing a few years ago, they started tailing police vehicles and posting the information on TV, etc. Well, apparently one of the police officers who they got on film SOMEHOW was able to subpoena the EDR from the news van. It proved that the news van was indeed speeding. In the end, the office was cited as was the driver of the van. The fact that they were able to subpoena the EDR for a civil (non-criminal) offense is what concerns me....
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 09:46:29 PM »

Quote from: 07G35S on August 02, 2008, 08:00:45 PM
Wait they have this technology in a grand am?  Does that mean they can spy on me too?  I know that your ECU can report RPMs and stuff like that if you had redlined your car and burnt up your engine, but I didnt think it held any historical data.  Are infiniti's equipped with the black box?  and what happens if you remove the black box in the lexus?   or is the "black box" in fact... just an additional function of the ECU?

It appears it's part of the airbag assembly in the lexus, and things won't function without it.. Sad
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2008, 09:55:08 PM »

it looks like in all cases that consent of the vehicle owner is necessary to access the information, so i'm not sure why it should worry you.... in the case of the news van... the EDR's in all the info above say no more than 30 seconds prior to a crash... so that doesnt make a lot of sense
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2008, 09:57:52 PM »

There are lots of cases when consent isn't required.. but mostly criminal. I'm not sure how the news van one played out. I dont think there was an accident, but the EDR was definitely subpoeaned and used as evidence.
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2008, 10:15:29 PM »

well i am by no means an expert, but it seems like per the information in the links regarding EDR... if they asked for the EDR data, the only way it would contain anything would be if there were a crash, except in the case of the GTR which has a more sophisticated data recording system IN ADDITION to the EDR.
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2008, 10:17:25 PM »

You said "aggregated and anonymized" info ... that would mean collecting data from a lot of unidentifiable vehicles, so it wouldn't be a violation of your personal rights, would it?

Reminds me of how Microsoft and others collect data about software conflicts, etc., for troubleshooting ... not that I like it, you understand.

The future - according to some reports I've read - is for your EDR to actually begin transmitting on a dedicated police radio wavelength, so it would "tattle" on you to a police cruiser sitting on the side of the road. The cop would then put down his donut, turn on his cruiser's lights and pull you over.

Oh, you say you weren't speeding? Hmmm ... sorry, your EDR disagrees. Sign here, please.
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Re: Lexus' concept of "privacy" (EDR)
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2008, 10:19:37 PM »

Sounds like there's going to be a huge market for EDR removal/modification.. Smiley

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